today marks the 1 year anniversary of the release of my second book, "escape from paradise".
i wanted to take the time to thank everyone here who was supportive of this book and for all the great feedback i received on it.
you guys rock.. of course, not all the feedback was pleasant.
Truthexplorer - thanks for the shout out.
ToesUp - I hope that happens too! I really don't know why more ex-Bethelites don't write about it.
Muddy Waters - Wow, that is a powerful endorsement. I hope someday you can finish my book and that you can heal from all the hurt. I would love to know if the book helps you in any way. Thanks so much dear.
Brock
today marks the 1 year anniversary of the release of my second book, "escape from paradise".
i wanted to take the time to thank everyone here who was supportive of this book and for all the great feedback i received on it.
you guys rock.. of course, not all the feedback was pleasant.
Today marks the 1 year anniversary of the release of my second book, "Escape from Paradise". I wanted to take the time to thank everyone here who was supportive of this book and for all the great feedback I received on it. You guys rock.
Of course, not all the feedback was pleasant. For your entertainment, I would like to share with you its harshest review:
https://www.revealnews.org/blog/how-jehovahs-witness-leaders-are-responding-to-child-abuse-scrutiny/.
by trey bundy .
december 14, 2015 .
Nitty Gritty,
This is a very good question you ask: "If Mr. Bundy is such an exceptional investigator, then he ought to ask himself why? Why is an organization that claims to be morally superior to any other organization on earth "supposedly" protecting pedophiles?"
Trey expressed this very question to me himself as a matter of fact. He expressed surprise to me that they were not willing to meet with him to explain their side of the story for the record. He asked me my opinion on why I thought they wouldn't want to hurry to explain their side of the story to the press.
To me though, a related question would be: "Why would an innocent organization stonewall a reporter who could help them clear up misconceptions?"
Both questions are answered by this: Extreme hubris, coupled with a reckless application of Bible theology.
First, I don't believe it is the Watch Towers GOAL to protect pedophiles. No clear thinking person would believe they get behind closed doors and say to each other: "OK, let's see if we can make up some rules that would make it VERY easy to abuse children so that we can attract as many child abuse cases per member as the Catholic Church." No. That doesn't happen.
But what does happen is their hubris gets the best of them in their application of their often warped Bible theology and then bad things happen to their members as a result.
This is about more than child abuse issue too. It can be applied to their attitudes about the extreme shunning (disfellowshipping) policy, their rules related to blood transfusions, their attitudes towards higher education, their not allowing members to get a voting card in Malawi, and so on. They take what they believe are Biblical principles and apply them in an extreme and often reckless way that result in their members committing suicide, needlessly dying in operations, staying poor and depressed and financially stressed the rest of their lives, getting persecuted and killed in Malawi, and so on. No, they don't SET OUT to cause these things, but their policies and attitudes RESULT in them. If challenged by anyone by any of these things, they will double down because they are the Faithful and Discreet Slave after all, backed by Jehovah Himself. They can't be wrong, and if "True Christians" must suffer for their faith, so be it.
Regarding the child abuse problem specifically, this recklessness and hubris consists of them thinking they actually know better than the authorities on how to handle "congregational matters" and "to keep free from reproach on Jehovah". They don't consider that the "two witness rule" is one of principle to make sure an innocent person is not convicted on one person's word, but that in modern times this can mean guilt being proven in more ways than literally "two witnesses to the same alleged event."
Because of this hubris and recklessness, they try to handle these things themselves internally (where there is often partiality shown because JWs have a very definite pecking order) rather than relying on outside authorities to neutrally investigate ALL ACCUSATIONS and just letting the chips fall where they may with people who do this for a living. They actually believe they know better about the psychology of repeat offense tendencies, how to know when someone is "truly repentant" and won't offend again and so on. They actually believe this approach protects Jehovah's Organization.
Again, hubris and recklessness.
Regarding the dishonesty part, this comes in when the Watch Tower claims there is "no official policy of silence" that is enforced for an alleged victim. This is what the Wikipedia page says on it:
The hearing was told that in response to a summons issued by the commission, the Watch Tower Society had produced 5000 documents including 1006 case files relating to allegations of child sexual abuse made against members of the Jehovah’s Witness church in Australia since 1950—each file for a different alleged perpetrator of child sexual abuse. Those documents showed that of the 1006 alleged perpetrators of child sexual abuse "not one was reported by the Church to secular authorities". The commission was told: "This suggests that it is the practice of the Jehovah’s Witness Church to retain information regarding child sexual abuse offenses but not to report allegations of child sexual abuse to the police or other relevant authorities."
An elder from the Australian branch office said that when not required by law to report abuse allegations to authorities, the church left the decision to report to authorities with the victim and his or her family.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses%27_handling_of_child_sex_abuse
(Side note: It's pretty sad when your church has an entire Wikipedia page devoted to "alleged" child abuse problems.)
Back to my point, can you believe that in 1,006 potential cases of child abuse, from files produced by the Watch Tower Society itself mind you, NOT ONE got reported to the authorities. Not one! Do you really think this is by accident or coincidence?
And this after the Watch Tower representative twists the truth by saying "the decision to report to the authorities is with the victim and his or her family". Really? You mean this was up to 1,006 families to report an alleged abuse to police and not one of them decided to do it, without any pressure whatsoever? Do you really believe this? This is the same claim the Watch Tower makes when they say "A family member can speak to a disfellowshipped one if they want to, it's their decision."
Sure, families can talk to disfellowshipped ones "if they want to", sure a family can report an alleged abuse to authorities "if they want to", sure someone can get a blood transfusion "if they want to", but they will pay the price for it in their congregations one way or the other, either by losing privileges, losing friends and family relationships or even being disfellowshipped for good.
This positioning of "you can do it if you want to" is a bald faced lie and every JW and ex-JW knows it.
https://www.revealnews.org/blog/how-jehovahs-witness-leaders-are-responding-to-child-abuse-scrutiny/.
by trey bundy .
december 14, 2015 .
Not quite Nitty-Gritty. Trey's findings are based on many inputs, not just ex-JWs.
For example, the Watch Tower published their official rebuttal regarding the Royal Commission, which Trey's paper publishes a link to after each article about it so that anyone can read the official words from the Watch Tower themselves. Nothing can be more fair than that. It's a long read, but it will back up Trey's summary of how the Watch Tower defends itself. The link is here if you wish to see it.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2649236-Submissions-on-Behalf-of-Watchtower-Bible-and.html
Whether it's the Watch Tower's take on the so called "two witness rule" or their take on recidivism, it is clear to an outsider like Trey that although they claim a high moral ground in their rebuttals, the proof is in the pudding: countless child abuse cases coming up again and again with the same issue always at the core. That issue is simply the abusers are coddled and protected more often than not.You have to read all of Trey's articles to understand what I mean by this, I won't try to recap all of the points here. If you haven't read Trey's articles, you should. They are excellent objective journalistic works. Read first, then judge later.
I know from speaking with him that Trey will speak to anyone who can help shed light on the subject. He actually has spoken to many current JWs, at least those who will talk to him. Unfortunately, he has found that just speaking with local elders only goes so far because in the end, the arrow always leads to Bethel. We all know that local elders do not have that much personal discretion when it comes to things like these: they ALWAYS write the headquarters to get advice on serious cases and they always get the same advice. So, that said, when Trey tries to speak to those at Bethel making the policy, he is stonewalled as a "tool of Satan". (He has actually been called that.)
Trey has also spoken with lawyers on both sides of the issue as well, who each add their own viewpoint into the mix. Most of the prosecuting attorneys' have no personal dog in the fight. They are not ex-JWs... they just prosecute the cases they take on to the best of their ability from a secular standpoint. The defending attorney's of course are usually Watch Tower controlled, but he will speak to them if he can as well.
So, no, you are wrong my friend. It is not only ex-JWs that Trey is speaking to. That's the Watch Tower excuse you are positioning yourself with. I'm not trying to change your mind though, believe what you wish. I am saying this for those reading this thread that I believe Trey Bundy is trying his best to find out what the real truth is about all these things, and that he will simply report what he finds.
Again, read all of Trey's articles and reference materials first, then judge afterwards. Then you can speak from a position of knowledge.
https://www.revealnews.org/blog/how-jehovahs-witness-leaders-are-responding-to-child-abuse-scrutiny/.
by trey bundy .
december 14, 2015 .
I've had the privilege of speaking with Trey at length on more than one occasion and one of the interesting things he told me was that he has visited Brooklyn Bethel multiple times in order to give Watch Tower representatives a chance to tell their side of the story, on their own turf and at his expense mind you. Each time they chickened out and wouldn't even speak to him -- at all. Period. So, they are lying to their people when they say Trey has a closed mind, when in fact THEY are the ones with the closed minds.
As a journalist, all Trey is interested in is facts. It's one of the reasons he contacted me, and contacted many others in the ex-JW community he thinks might be able to shed light on whatever he is reporting. In my case it was my Bethel experience from my first book he was interested in when preparing for his last visit there. He does extensive research on anything he is writing about, which is something most of us can see in his reporting.
I'm positive that if he were to come up with exonerating information on the Watch Tower, proving them innocent, he would simply report that. He has no agenda other than finding out and then reporting on the truth. It is just as good a story to report a poor innocent religious organization being set up and persecuted by allegedly lying disgruntled ex-members, than it is to write what he has been reporting.
Of course, what he has found instead is that all the things people like Barbara Anderson, Candace Conti and others have been telling him are 100% true and it is this religious organization that are the liars.
someone at bethel dinning room was hogging all the bread rolls!!!
would a brother on the writting dep.
dare vent his frustration thru the spiritual food our watchtower???
someone at bethel dinning room was hogging all the bread rolls!!!
would a brother on the writting dep.
dare vent his frustration thru the spiritual food our watchtower???
Technically gluttony is a disfellowshipping sin. But I have yet to hear of anyone ever being disfellowshipped for it in the history of the Jehovah's Witness religion. I could be wrong here, but I would venture to say it is extremely rare and possibly never to have happened. Please, someone chime in if I am wrong and you know of someone who was disfellowshipped for gluttony or "greediness". (Not just counseled for it.) I'd love to hear that story.
I do agree that being "fat" alone isn't sufficient for the DF'ing because that can be attributed to other things besides gluttony. It's just medical science that it's more difficult to keep the weight off as we age due to our metabolism slowing down, our activity slowing down, and so on.
DF'ing for being fat is a slippery slope I seriously doubt any elder body would be willing to start walking on for a few reasons:
1. How would you define it? How much overweight is too much? Do we go by the technical BMI levels or something more than that? If more, how much fat is too fat deserving of expulsion?
2. So many JWs are overweight themselves, the question would be how many elder bodies are there where at least one of their own would not facing having themselves or a family member DFed?
3. This would be especially difficult in the U.S. where a huge percentage of the populate is overweight by strict technical BMI standards.
I had one elder when growing up who had a HUGE wife, I mean 400 pounds big. She had a very pretty face and actually was a very sweet lady too. He would brag about loving all of her "curves". He had book study at his house where he placed "Big Beautiful Woman" magazines everywhere so we could see them. They never hid that they both ate quite lavishly either, in fact, they bragged bout their "escargot parties" and so on. I never once heard a single discussion where either of them were on deck for DF'ing or even got a stern talking to or he was threatened with losing his privileges. I recall quite clearly my parents discussing it between themselves as they were puzzled that this could go on "in an elder's home".
This is part of the "selective sin" that JWs love to practice, where over eating and even over drinking is often looked the other way, but sexual sin has immediate and severe consequences.
some people point out the subliminal pictures in the wtbts publications but sometimes things are just so obvious, such as the title of the book above.. the person who came up with the title for this book must have had a good old laugh.. interestingly, this book first came out in 1988 and has not been included in the online library but nothing has replaced it.
the org is really going backwards when they ditch old light and cannot come up with anything new.
they are real wankers ;)..
i understand that many on this forum are undertaking a slow fade, over months, years even.. can i ask what is the benefit of that instead of a fast fade?.
as i understand it, the elders only have to deal judicially with people who are still active witnesses, known in the community as witnesses, having contact and influence with witnesses etc.
so surely the sooner you stop attending meetings the better.
I talk about fading in my book "Escape from Paradise" in a chapter called "Death may be the easiest way." I try to explain to the non-JW that there are only 4 ways to leave the Jehovah's Witnesses:
1. Disfellowshipping
2. Disassociation
3. Fading
4. Death
I attempt to explain to those unfamiliar how all 4 of these work; here's an excerpt of how I describe fading:
---
Fading out of the Jehovah's Witness faith often takes skill and subtlety, as well as a fair amount of good luck and favorable circumstance. Ex-JWs usually consider fading to be the trickiest of the ways to leave the faith. It also seems to be the most desirable way in most cases, because the pain from total shunning can be avoided, while at the same time moving on with your life. If you have no friends, no family, no coworkers and no neighbors who are Jehovah's Witnesses, and you really don't care if you ever see one again for as long as you live, then disfellowshipping and disassociation may not hurt you that much. However, this is not a very common situation. Because of this, many choose to try to fade, even if it is the most difficult to pull off.
To successfully fade from the Watch Tower clutches, you have to use passive aggressive skills to the max. If you don't have the predisposition for it, or the good luck to have elders in your congregation or family members who will let you fade, then you could ultimately be forced into a disfellowshipping or disassociation situation.
To fade usually means to slowly reduce your meeting attendance and all other association with the Witnesses. You usually have to do this as imperceptibly as possible. If you have family members who are very active, this can make things difficult. If you are an elder or ministerial servant, this makes it tough as well. To fade successfully, you have to make sure to never say anything negative about the Watch Tower Society or about their doctrine or behavior. You have to make excuses for why you are not attending meetings and not going out in field service, always implying that you know you should do more and that you plan on doing it if you can. Being contrite about things makes it more acceptable and less suspicious to other Jehovah's Witnesses, because you will not be perceived as a threat to them.
In order to fade successfully, you will need to get the other Jehovah's Witnesses to simply deem you "weak in The Truth," "spiritually weak" or "inactive." You will have to be able to bear this labeling, and the partial shunning you will receive from it. Partial shunning (also called "marking") is actually what you want to have happen. This is when individual JWs will begin to omit you from their social activities, and will whisper about you behind your back. Getting marked means less to your family though, because nobody expects your family members to completely cut you off just because others avoid you for not being a good strong JW. As long as you are not disfellowshipped or disassociated, your family can still talk to you. So, if you want to fade successfully, you have to accept the marking (partial shunning) that comes with it.
To fade successfully also means that you have to refrain from openly doing the many things you know could get you disfellowshipped. You cannot fade, hang around Jehovah's Witnesses from time to time, but then openly move in with a boyfriend or girlfriend. (JWs cannot have sex outside of marriage.) You cannot fade, hang Christmas lights on your house and have Jehovah's Witness friends over for eggnog. (JWs cannot celebrate any holiday.) You cannot fade, and then run for public office in your town. (JWs cannot be involved in politics.) If you try to mix these things, you will be hunted down by the elders of the congregation you faded from, and disfellowshipped for conduct unbecoming a Jehovah's Witness "Christian."
This is what makes fading from the Jehovah's Witness faith so difficult for so many. You may think you are fading successfully by not going to meetings and not doing public preaching any longer, but in time forget that you cannot attend a wedding at the church of a non-Witness friend, who knows one of your Witness friends. (JWs can never attend any other church.) You may forget that you should not attend a work-related friend's bachelor party with strippers, only to have a Jehovah's Witness workmate hear about you being there. (JWs cannot be involved in loose conduct.) There are so many rules and regulations in the Jehovah's Witness faith that can get you disfellowshipped, including things like letting your child have a blood transfusion to save their life, picking up lottery winnings in public, or smoking a celebratory cigar following a child's birth. In time, you may slip up and be seen doing some of these things. If you are still associating with Jehovah's Witnesses in any meaningful way, then watch out! You will pay the price for your folly, and will be formally disfellowshipped.
To recap, successfully fading means you have to disassociate yourself in a manner of speaking, just not formally. In that way, you can always talk to Jehovah's Witnesses when you need to. In order to be safe though, you should keep that association rare and on your own terms. The less the active Jehovah's Witnesses know about your new non-Witness life, the better.
I personally am a fader. I sold my home and moved far enough away to require me to change congregations, but close enough to still have access to the town I grew accustomed to. I had my congregational records moved from my old one to my new one, and then simply stopped going to meetings altogether. The new elders didn't have a vested interest in me enough to care that I did not attend anymore, so I was free. Since my immediate family lived in another state and had faded themselves, with no other family members being Jehovah's Witnesses, my fading was relatively simple.
I still run into old Witness "friends" from time to time, and they are pleasant enough to me when we speak. We can talk about old times, but I try not to bring up anything specific about my current life that could alarm them. When they ask me directly if I am "still going to meetings," I tell them no, but try to look sad about it. They will shake their heads and admonish me to try to get back to "the safety of Jehovah's Organization." At that, I will grimace and nod my head in return. They think I'm nodding my head in agreement with them. In actuality, I'm grimacing and nodding my head because I'm telling myself, "Yes, I knew you would say that same old tired Watch Tower robot-speak."
I have actually had one or two of those old "friends" attempt to get together with me socially, but I always make an excuse to get out of it, especially if it means I would be spending a lot of time with them. I like to keep my encounters with Jehovah's Witnesses brief, using that short time to do what some ex-JWs call "reverse witnessing." By this, I mean that I will let them see how happy and fulfilled my life is. I show them pictures of my family life, talk about my wonderful non-JW wife and tell them about the parties I attended recently with my close non-JW friends. I will also talk about my fulfilling career, or my adorable pets, or any other number of things like that. I do this because most Jehovah's Witnesses believe it is impossible to be happy and joyful outside of their religion, especially if you used to be one of them. When they don't find me angry, miserable, or walking around like the living dead, it puzzles them. I am always hoping that this will plant seeds of doubt in their minds so that someday they will wake up to realize what they don't have. Yes, my approach is subtle, but it's really the only thing I can do. I have rarely seen an ex-JW win by using an in-your-face approach with an active Jehovah's Witness, that's why I have chosen to avoid that route.
That is also why I use a pen name. Should any of my Witness acquaintances find out I am the author Brock Talon, they would never speak to me again for writing "apostate" books. Even though that really wouldn't hurt me any longer, it would hurt them. I would never be able help any of them after that. Besides, I really would not get any joy out of hurting their feelings just because I could do so. I try to keep in mind that it is not entirely their fault that they are the way they are. After all, I used to be just like them.
For the time being, these people may think they have marked me because I am not strong in The Truth, but they at least don't totally shun me. In reality though, I am the one who has marked them. That is something that would never dawn on them, since they believe they are the chosen ones and always have the upper hand. I let them think whatever they like, because my life is peaceful, and free from the Sword of Damocles hanging over my head, while I know one hundred percent that theirs is not.
---
Brock Talon
this is something i think about a lot, possibly because i'm just getting older.
it seems that not only should i finally one day decide what i want to do with my life, but i should also be planning for retirement.. hands up everyone who feels their future has been royally screwed by the wts experience?.
if you were a good jw and followed the wts advice you could well be finding yourself facing middle or even old age without much or anything put aside in retirement savings.
Excellent post Simon. You have done this community a great service if they will only read it and try to do at least some of the suggestions you make.
I want to add that the consistent thing I see most people do wrong regarding savings (and ultimately, retirement) is not living beneath ones means. Everyone has a "means" because everyone has a different income amount and a different family situation (married / single, kids / no kids). But my casual observation is most people will buy the house or car that the bank says they can afford. Well, that's usually right AT their means, not beneath it. It is no sin to live at ones means... but this doesn't easily translate into being able to save. Most banks and realtors, etc. will encourage you to spend as much as their calculations will tell them you CAN spend. Then, most people get excited about that and buy the best car or house or rent the best apartment, etc. that they can. These BIG monthly expenditures are then set in stone for many months or even years and play the biggest part in a budget calculation later. So their budget starts out with a premise that these things HAVE to be this high. Often they do not. This is only because people do not really want to live beneath their means.
Another mistake many make is not taking advantage of their company's 401k match. I've heard from friends that say "Well, my company match is really poor. They only match 50% up to x thousands of dollars... so I don't participate". I ask them what they do with the money that they are not putting into the 401k and they will say "well, I invest it". So, I ask them this, "what investment do you have that guarantees 50% earnings?" Even if your company has a "poor" 50% or 25% match, that is guaranteed! Why not get this "free" money? On top of that, the money you put into the 401k to get the free money match is tax deferred, so you won't pay taxes on it until you retire and begin to withdraw it, probably at a lower tax rate. Not utilizing a company match, at least to the fullest amount your company will give, is silly. You can't get easier money.
